Bondi Patrol Podcast

How will Drones change Bondi? Chief UAV Pilot James Bassam explains how drones work for SLS

• Glen Frost • Season 1 • Episode 30

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Bondi Patrol Podcast

James Bassam: Chief Remote Pilot & Manager of the Australian UAV Service – part of SLS NSW

James leads a team of 350+ staff and manages 200+ UAV assets - coordinating over 100,000 flights each year to deliver critical public safety, emergency response and commercial UAV operations, including NSW Rural Fire Service operations. 

UAV stands for Unmanned Aerial Vehicle. It refers to an aircraft that flies without an onboard human pilot. Instead, it is either controlled remotely by a pilot on the ground or flies autonomously using onboard computers, GPS, and sensors. It is more commonly known as a drone.

Interested in learning more?

https://australianuavs.com.au/become-a-uav-pilot/ 

 

 

 

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Hello, and welcome to the Bondi Patrol Podcast. My name's Glenn Frost, and I'm your host for this episode. Delighted to welcome James Bassam, the Chief Remote Pilot and Manager of the Australian UAV Service to the show. The UAV service is part of SLS New South Wales. UAV stands for unmanned aerial vehicle. It refers to an aircraft that flies without an onboard human. Instead, it's controlled remotely by pilots on the ground or flies autonomously. James leads a team of 350-plus staff and manages over 200 UAV assets. They coordinate over 100,000 flights each year to deliver critical public safety emergency response and commercial UAV operations, including New South Wales Rural Fire Service operations. He is responsible for the end-to-end service delivery, he drives innovation, and he manages the budgets, ensuring cost-effective performance for the business. James, welcome to the podcast.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

Thank you very much, Glenn. It's a pleasure to be here.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Look, I'll start off by asking you where are we right now? It's July it's winter, so it's not the busy period, it's not the volunteers' period but we're seeing drones on the beaches in Sydney. Could you give us an update on where we are?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

I absolutely can. So it's been quite noticeably in the public at the moment, in the media the scale-up of our drone program in response to some tragic incidents that occurred at the start of the year, and then more recently as well down at Coogee. Our UAV program has scaled up quite dramatically recently.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Over, virtually

ZOOM0098_Tr3

over- virtually overnight, we've gone from what we did about a hundred thousand flights last year for the drone program, and we model now over five hundred thousand flights that we're gonna do in the year coming. It's been a monumental effort. And what that means is we're gonna have seventy-three locations that we're gonna fly drones from across the whole coastline of New South Wales. There's fifty of those that are gonna be three hundred and sixty-five days a year now. That includes every single beach in the northern beaches and Sydney beaches, from Palm Beach down to Cronulla as well as a single beach in each LGA across the whole coastline as well. Around fifty-three, sixty-five days a year, and then the other twenty-three will be on the weekends, in school holidays, and they'll also be seven days a week over five months in summertime as well. So yeah, a, a big scale-up of the program recently for sure.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Got it. Okay. Couple of things that immediately pop into my head. Who are the drone monitors and what type of drones do we have? So let's start off with the drone monitors. Your team,

ZOOM0098_Tr3

let's start off with the drone monitors. Your team, I guess Yeah, the incredible team that we've got. So we've got over 350 casual pilots across the whole coastline. They're in- incredibly, incredible support to what we do, and we could not do it without them. They're very well-trained. It- it's quite a mature staff base now as well. Many of them have their remote pilot licenses and have been doing this for a number of years. So yeah, they're out there. They're visually flying the drones on the beach and the public will see them out there at the landing sites that we caught and off with the platforms. And they're there at the moment over, over winter from 6:30 to 4:15 in the afternoon, flying two flights every hour. So yeah, an inc- an incredible crew both out there on the front line flying the drones, but then also behind the scenes as well. It takes a, a lot of effort that we can get to in all the back-end systems and recruitment and maintenance and training as you can imagine. I

ZOOM0098_Tr1

I do. Yes, I can. They're full-time it... and they're paid positions, and they have to have a UAV pilot's license, which they get through Surf Life Saving and you?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

Yeah, so they are, most of our pilots are casually employed. So previously until this massive scale-up that, that's happened now we've been very seasonally operating. So during the school holidays for the most part across the coastline. So it's been a casual paid position that most of our pilots have been. As part of this scale-up now it's fantastic, we're gonna be able to offer pilots a full-time fixed term contract as well, so they can be out there regularly recurring hours throughout the whole year. But yeah, many of them do have the remote pilot license now, but it isn't actually required for a lot of our sites. We do a, a two-day, what we call an operator induction program for anyone, even off the streets, without any prior experience at all. We're needing all the help we can get at the moment and we've had an incredible response as well to the scale-up of our program. And yeah, anyone that applies, we have a, a training program that has some theory components as well as practical that'll t- teach you how to fly the drone, how to work in the surf lifesaving environment and can get out on the beach and fly these things. There's some locations that require the license and that's the progression of these pilots as well. Of, as they become op- from operators without the license to becoming what we call pilots with the license, and we provide and deliver that training for them.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Excellent. And at the end of the podcast, I'll get you to list the website address where people can go to, to either learn more or apply for those positions. Sure. 'Cause I think that's a great opportunity if you're already a volunteer surf lifesaver. Let's get to the equipment. You mentioned two flights an hour. I presume it's battery operated, and you've chosen a certain drone of a certain size with a certain camera and everything for a certain cost or reason. Why did you choose the drones that you're using? So

ZOOM0098_Tr3

most of our platforms are DJI platforms.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

That's the brand of the company?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

of the company, yeah. So we do very in-depth market analysis every couple of years when we do a fleet replacement of our drones. We have over 200 of them in our fleet. So we have a supplier relationship and we have a team that, that looks at the capabilities that are out there and what's the best in the market for what we do. And yeah, these platforms have consistently been the best that are out there. So the ones that we use at the moment are called Matrice 4s as well as M30s. Matrice 4s we just rolled out only a couple of months ago as part of the new fleet replacement to get the new platforms out there, so very good timing just before this scale-up. They can operate in about 45 kilometer winds. They all have speakers and sirens on top of them as well. You'll see them stick it and brand it up with the red and yellow- Yeah As well. And and then the bigger platforms, the M30s, they can fly that little bit further, about a kilometer away compared to the Matrice 4s that can go 500 meters away. So we position them at locations with maybe bigger, longer beaches or to cover multiple beaches if that's required. And those bigger M30s as well can fly in heavier rain and up to 60 kilometers wind, so they're a bit more durable as well.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

That's, yeah, that's quite an impressive stat, actually. Now we're at Bondi, so I'm gonna ask a very local question. If you've got a beach that's, let's say, 800 to 1,000 meters long, and you've got one drone operator how effective is the drone in- covering the whole beach. Do you have to sweep up and down the beach, and how long does that take? What's the sort of getting into the head of the drone operator, what are they gonna have to do?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

Yes. No, so yeah, we're here on a beautiful spot in Bondi- Yeah on this lovely day. The pilot is down there at the moment near the lifeguard tower, centrally located in the middle of the beach. They cordon off that area, and they'll take off and fly straight over just off the break of the waves there at about 60 meters above the water level. That's standardized across the state. It's the best altitude to get the coverage we need and the eyes in the sky, and it's incredible what you can see from up there straight through the water column. And yeah, it's very easy to detect any kind of hazards that might be out there.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

And how when you're that high up above the water, how, what's the sort of footprint of your visibility?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

So then once they're at that altitude, they'll kind of lawnmower pattern sweeping line back and forth across the break of the waves. We can move the gimbal around, so it's hard to specifically say how much is the footprint 'cause the ca- the gimbal being the camera- Yeah can move around quite a lot, and that's what the pilot's controlling while the drone's patrolling back and forth off the break of the waves. So they can move that camera around adjusting for the glare of the sun as well. They're trained to do these things. And yeah, sweeping back and forth. The, the drone will be up there for about 20 to 30 minutes or so. It does depend on the weather for the, that battery life. And then, yeah it's incredible the coverage they can get though. So that Matrice 4, 500... sorry, 600 meters actually, line of sight from the pilot. But being centrally located on the beach means it's quite a long sweep back and forth, easily across the whole of Bondi here. Yeah. And then yeah, they'll land after about 30 minutes, quick change of the batteries, and then get up in the air again for that second flight of the hour.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Yeah. Fantastic. I was actually swimming down here a couple of weeks ago when the beach was evacuated. And it was a fascinating experience because it was evacuated because of the drone pilot seeing some sharks. It was great prep for this podcast. So the- operator had seen a shark, and I would imagine it was very clear. L- you... it was like a, a day like today. It was relatively calm. There, th- it wasn't bad weather. The, the water's nice and clear. They would've been able to see that shark very clearly, and I presume coming towards the beach. What happens next? D- is it their call to, to call the lifeguards and to set the l- the shark alarm? Is that their call?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

So it's a very collaborative process, that one. So as soon as the, the pilot's in touch on the radio to the lifeguards and lifesavers on the beach they're also in touch on the radio to our state operations center- at Bellrose. So as soon as the pilot sees anything, and they'll look for any kind of indicators in advance as well, be it a bait ball that might be out there too that attracts the sharks in. As soon as they see something that's worthwhile reporting they'll jump on that radio within seconds, get in touch with the lifeguards or the lifesavers, and that collaborative process then to identify what the hazard is and the decision is then made by the lifeguards or lifesavers to put a countermeasure in place. The drone has that siren on top or a speaker, and that can alert swimmers that there's a shark in the water, please get out. And also just play that ongoing siren to evacuate the beach if that is required. The pilots as well are being issued loudhailers locally and we're looking at a process for that too, just for people on the beach, just to let them know the drone's out there flying, warning the swimmers, and then s- there's a loudhailer on the beach to alert the beachgoers. But yeah, that all happens within seconds. The appropriate countermeasure will then be put into place. It might just be a jet ski out there to shepherd the shark away, evacuating the beach if required, but then also importantly reopening it once it's safe to do so, and the drone's also good at that, just knowing actively when the threat has, has gone. It's a very active solution, this one. It's not intrusive. It's active. It's not a passive solution. You're out there with eyes in the sky looking at what the d-dangers might be and acting appropriately.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Yes. There was a an article in The Sydney Morning Herald I think yesterday or the day before, that said they did a poll or a survey, and the response from the public was they felt that the drones were the best way of dealing with it. Which is great for the UAV service. What I'm very interested in though, and it occurred to me when the beach was evacuated, is if we are now seeing more sharks more often, and we've now got these great cameras where we see the sharks, and prior to that, either the surf lifesavers or the surf lifeguards, because we didn't have that visibility above the water, we couldn't see a shark. There must be plenty out there. Do you... W- what are you prepping for in terms of how many times do you think you might have to evacuate a beach in summer? I know it's a different temperature, and we might get different types of sharks, but what sort of th... Do you have a sort of, we think we might have to evacuate the beach once a weekend or something? Yeah.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

Yeah. Look, it is tricky to specifically say. W- as soon as we scaled up this program on the 1st of July, it was quite a crazy period 'cause there was a lot of sharks out

ZOOM0098_Tr1

there. Yes.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

that's just the technology doing its thing. That's not to alarm anybody. It they're out there, of course they're out there, and we see many sharks a year. And most of the time they're out there well off the break of the waves. Yeah. We get our eyes on them early. We know where they're heading. We know whe- if they're a threat or not, and we put that countermeasure in. So it depends on the conditions on the day. That, that first week there was a lot. We had eyes on them. We put in the countermeasures. And then the week after that, to be honest, there wasn't that many. The conditions, for whatever reason, be it where the bait balls were, be it the temperature, be it the, the runoff from weather subsided and yeah, it kinda died off a little bit. So it really does depend day to day. And but yeah, I think to the point you made before, I think it, it's great to hear that the public is so reassured by having the drones out there. I'm s- very confident in its ability to actively detect any hazards that are out there, detect them, identify them, track them, and then, yeah put an appropriate countermeasure in place as well that is only as required. So we'll only close it if it is at one of the target species, for example. Is it a bull shark? Is it a white shark? Is it a tiger? Is it in the vicinity of swimmers? Is it heading towards them? And then yeah, working with the lifeguards to make sure that right decision's made.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Yeah. Yes. That's interesting. And sharks prefer different temperatures as well, I understand. What changes between winter and summer? Do... Is that gonna be a factor as well?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

Yeah we just so white sharks prefer the colder waters for sure. So we tend to see a few more whites in winter. But yeah we're out there regardless just looking for whatever species is there. We report all of this through to the Department of Primary Industries and Regional Development. It's of course a program funded by them. And yeah, all that data that we capture, all the sharks that we see we report through to them, and they use that for their scientific research purposes as well. Yeah,

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Interesting. Just talking about the drones and the amazing cameras on the drones is this all being live-streamed back to Belrose, and do you record it all?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

all? Yes. So every single one of our drones can be live-streamed back to Bellrose just at the click of a button. And we record whenever we notice a hazard or there's a rescue being undertaken or we see a shark. That's when we press the record button. Of course you can imagine otherwise we d- aim to do 500,000 flights this year. If we record every single flight which most of the time is just looking down at the water it's a bit of unnecessary amount of data. But yeah we pick those key moments to record, and all that gets captured, all that gets stored, all that gets reported through to the, to New South Wales Government. And then, yeah, at the click of a button we can I can sit at my desk at Bellrose or in the State Operations Center and look at the feed from these drones. And, a- 'cause again it just supports that emergency response when we're working with police and other agencies as well- Yes With that footage.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

With that footage. Yes. That's interesting. W- well, given, for example, the tragic event that happened at Bondi in December at the Hanukkah festival are the drones able to fly over the land as or are you only permitted to do water and beach?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

There are a number of regulations when it comes to using drones, and yeah, you're not allowed to fly over people. There's certain levels of approvals you can get and the need to put a parachute on the drone and to, to fly what's called over and near people. But no, for these drones and most of the operations that we do it is just over the water. Okay. So it's not over a population. We do have we're quite a proudly quite a mature organization. We've been doing this for about 10 years now. So we have a great relationship with CASA. We've got a number of approvals and regulatory instruments in place that allow us to do these more complex things, but they're not always needed. It's beyond our kind of remit out there as well. But yeah as required there's a lot of extra value these drones can provide and, we've been off here helping out the The City to Surf swim and just looking at the crowd flow there. Again, off the water, but looking back and just helping the organizers manage the people, make sure there's no crashes or anything. But then yeah, working with New South Wales Police for search and rescues. The drones as well we've supported a lot with the New South Wales floods that happened over the last number of years.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

couple of years. Yes. Yes. Tell us all about what, how you help our friends at the SES and- Yeah the Rural Fire Service.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

Yeah, so of course we're an emergency service. We it's the core of what we do. A very full purpose agency and whenever there's s- ex-tropical cyclone Alfred or the 2022 New South Wales floods as well all the agencies get out there, and being the most mature drone-based one we're out there with our pilots. It's, and it's always so heartwarming and amazing to see how many people put their hand up to support and go on these deployments for multiple days at a time with drones, working with the SES, with Rural Fire Service, Fire and Rescue New South Wales Police, all the agencies out there. It's a collaborative process to get the drones up there, be that eyes in the sky, not put people on the ground in danger c- because a drone can get the vision. Look at asset damage as well post the floods. And yeah, just be that supportive tool. Ultimately, it's a tool and there's so many ways you can use them. But yeah, we've been able to help with floods and fires and all sorts of things, and search and rescues.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Yes. My daughter's with SES and her boyfriend, I spoke to them last night when I was prepping for this interview, and they were talking about how the drones can help them understand maybe where to go into a situation or when not to go into a situation because you've got that eye in the sky visibility. So that can be the difference between, a 10-minute rescue or a accident or someone getting harmed. So- The use of drones has this great capability to both increase speed and help people like surf lifesavers or the SES. And you mentioned earlier, let's say we've got drone operator on the beach, and it's in season. And the, the volunteers are on the beach. We have a jet ski. We have an IRB. If there was a shark, and it was coming in, would you be calling on us to, send a jet ski out, send an IRB out? And is that now part of what we have to incorporate in our training, that we're working with the drones as another part of our surf life-saving activity?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

Yeah. So it's definitely a, a collaborative process. And yes, all, all our pilots are on the same surf comm channels and in touch with the patrols and the lifeguards across the whole coastline. So yeah I I'd encourage a-any, any patrolling members to get to know the pilots that are there. Put a name to the faces as well. There'll be more consistent pilots on beaches too now being three sixty-five days a year. Yeah, you'll get to know them a bit better, make them part of the operation. They're trained to know what to do and what to report and work collaboratively with the patrol and the lifeguards. They won't be making decisions independently out there. So yeah, jump on the radio, know where they are, know that they're a tool out there to be used 'cause yeah, there's so many applications. Just that eyes in the sky, knowing in advance what the hazard might be helping to detect rips as well. Yes. There's so many added extra capabilities of them.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Yeah. yeah. no, I think it's gonna be a fascinating interaction in the future. I'm... Th- there's a couple of other things that when you start watching the drones you think, "Okay, these drones are landing." I know there's a landing pad, but it's still sand. Does the sand damage the equipment, and does it get clogged up into the propellers and things?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

Yes, it's a, really good question. It is obviously very harsh corrosive conditions

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Yes, the salt. Yes. Yeah. That's right. Yes.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

sand there's all sorts of things we have to deal with. And that kind of touches on that, that backend team that I mentioned before the maintenance crew

ZOOM0098_Tr1

that we've got- Got it. Okay

ZOOM0098_Tr3

in the backend. So all our drones have a recurring maintenance cycle for what's called minor maintenance as well as major maintenance, and we have to stick to that because yeah, the sand can get in the bearings, the, the salt gets corrosive and there's a post-cleaning process. There's a checklist at the start of the day the pilots all go through to make sure the drones are in good condition. But then yeah, a- after a certain amount of time out there, they need to be cleaned. They need to go through a maintenance process as well. The landing pad is big enough that the drone can land obviously without landing on the sand, but that said, some kicks up- Yeah but it's part of the pilot's role just to brush it off and make sure there's nothing in there. That's why we also encourage no one to walk through that area that is which is ha- coned

ZOOM0098_Tr1

fenced off. That's gonna be difficult in peak tourist season because these things are new, and everyone's gonna be fascinated by them. And of course, I had a quick look at one of the screens. The visibility is... The quality of the image that you get through on that screen is sometimes absolutely sensational. It's like high definition quality.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

It's got so good over the

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Has it? Yeah.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

working with

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Yeah. I feel for the operator, they're gonna have to be a Th- this, 'cause this is a dilemma. You, your job is to look at this screen and not actually talk to all the tourists that

ZOOM0098_Tr3

front of you. But we Yes. And that I guess, yeah, one messaging there would be if a pilot is in a key moment flying the drone, especially landing and taking off, we'd encourage the pilot, the, the public, sorry, maybe to just delay and wait to approach them. But that said, we appreciate that it's a public thing that we're doing. We're very out there in the beach, and everyone's interested, and we love that, that people are interested in what we're doing, and we're there to help the community. So the, the pilots would happily talk to people as well and explain what's happening and where they're flying and just have a conversation. But I guess, yeah just being aware that this is the area. We don't purposely make it as big as we pro- as we say need as a distance, 'cause it needs to be 30 meters away from the public the drone itself.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

That's gonna be difficult on Bondi.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

shri- Yeah. So we shrink it. We shrink that takeoff area on purpose and then dynamically buffer from the public.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

So- Got it

ZOOM0098_Tr3

We'll take off once people are a bit further away. Yeah. But we're working with the lifeguards over summer because, yeah, it's a new location for us here, so we need to figure out, yeah, over summer it's gonna be packed here. So where will we fly from? How will that work without taking up the space for the beachgoers as well? 'Cause that's not what we're there to do. Sure. So yeah. We'll work with the lifeguards over summer to see how that works best. Yeah. But yeah, no, ask the pilots what they're up to. They love to talk about it. It's an interesting thing. It's I love working in it. Yeah. It's technology. It's public safety. It's yeah, it's the ocean.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Yes, of course. The only thing is that if you've got... I notice this when I'm on patrol. You constant... th- so you've got the glare of the, the sun off the water and off the sand, and it's important to keep looking in different places 'cause you either get mesmerized or you tend sometimes can zone out. When you're... what... how do you train people if they've got, say, a, what is it, a six or eight-hour shift? How do they keep motivated and concentrated on looking on this small screen? It... How do you get people's head around what that job is?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

Yeah, no, fair. So there's the training that we do in a- in advance of things particularly to look for and keep an eye out for. But yeah, no it... For many people, maybe at a surface level, it looks like the pilot's sitting there flying a drone and how fun does that look? Which it is. But it is also can be quite draining for them out in the elements and staring at a screen all day. So we make sure they have the right amount of breaks and yeah, when the battery changes over, they're between each flight, it's their time to just look around

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

But but also the, the drones can be programmed on an automated flight path just to reduce that cognitive load of trying to fly the drone as well as look on the screen.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Oh, I see. Yeah. Okay.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

our, some of our best pilots like to fly manually. So we a- and they're better at doing that whilst focusing at the screen as well because that keeps their attention. Yeah. So it's pilot to pilot in that regard. But yeah, look, it is a bit draining staring at a screen and looking for the right things and but yeah, they're very well trained to do it. But, and maybe this bridges to AI too because that's where AI can assist is triggering knowing hey, look, there's a hazard here that maybe the pilot might have missed potentially because of that strain. And it just draws their attention to it.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

You mention AI and obviously AI is changing fast. We've seen the massive transfer of technology from war zones like Ukraine into domestic services or what might be called non-defense activities. Will we have AI that can lock onto an image in the water and go, "Yes, that's a great white," or, "Yes, that's a bull shark"? Are we there yet? What's the situation?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

Yeah we're not there yet, but yes, th- that's where we're heading, for sure. And there's a phased approach to that. Initially there's probably an AI that can say, "Hey, this isn't ocean. Have a look at what this is." "It's not the ocean, it's something else." Eventually as that AI gets better trained and there's models that just need a lot of data to train themselves- to know what is not just not ocean, but what is maybe a shark compared to a rock. Yes. And then what is a white compared to a whaler. so that's a whole process and takes a lot of training for the models to get to, and that's as part of this scale-up of the program, what we're working towards

ZOOM0098_Tr1

and- That's interesting because obviously, as you say, you're recording... You're Sorry. You have the capability to record all this, so presumably the large language model or the big data is sitting with you. You can train.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

We've got a lot of data from- Yeah from nine, 10 years of operating, that's for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

No, that's fascinating. Yeah. You mentioned also that it's important for the UAV operators to take a break. I presume that also includes toilet breaks. D- What's the logistics? Do they land the drone and then just go, "I need to go to the bathroom. I'm off for 10 minutes," and then come back? Is that really what's happening?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

Essentially, yes. At places like Bondi it's great 'cause the lifeguards have their own drone as well. So they're in touch with the

ZOOM0098_Tr1

the lifeguards- Do they?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

let them know, "Hey, I'm quickly running off to the toilet" Yeah or having a lunch break, and then the, the lifeguards will actually pop their drone

ZOOM0098_Tr1

up

ZOOM0098_Tr3

And fill in the gap there.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

I didn't know they had their own drone. Yeah.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

I didn't know they had their own drone. Yeah. So they're, they've been excellent to work with. But of course that's not the case across the whole coastline. So but yeah, it just like any kind of role I guess, it, there, there needs to be those

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Of course to keep everybody- yeah fatigued down. Yeah.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

toilet breaks too. But yeah, they're relatively quick. They'll land the drone run off quickly, and then by the time they come back it's not a quick process to then get the drone back up in the air.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

in the air. Yeah. Now, the other interesting question I have is that places like Bondi, there are people that fly drones and, put it on Instagram and all these kinds of things. What's the protocol? Do you have r- Is it like a motorway? Do you have right of way compared to, say, non-military or, the general public who are flying drones?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

Y- so it's a big open air space out there, and for sure there's a lot of public drones flying around. You can grab them from JB Hi-Fi- walk down to the beach and pop it up instantly. Yeah. There, there's One thing I'd note, there's a lot of rules that the public needs, need to be aware of as,

ZOOM0098_Tr1

The- Yeah

ZOOM0098_Tr3

industry's growing, about staying away from people, altitudes to fly- Yeah and everything. Look, no, so we don't necessarily have right of way, but that said, because we're out there for public safety and the community if there's a, a public drone that, that is interfering in our operations, say flying at the same 60-meter altitude- that we're flying at and in the area, that becomes a hazard. Our pilots would, will go over and have a conversation to that pilot and just say, "Hey, would you mind maybe flying over there or flying at a different altitude? Because what we're doing here is for public safety." Appreciate the public wants to get out there and do their thing as well, though. Yeah. So we're not there to kick anybody out, especially now that we are at every single beach. It's not necessarily our turf. But I just, guess just, I guess just an awareness of that we're there to help the community and the public ultimately. And if the public can work around that at different altitudes or talk to our pilot in advance of them flying and let them know, "Hey, is this okay? This is where

ZOOM0098_Tr1

where we're gonna fly." Yeah.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

I think that'd go a really long way.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Or even come and work for you.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

Exactly. No, that'd be great. We do need all the pilots we can get.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

so they're... If you've already got the experience, yeah. Yeah. No that's I... One of the things that I'm fascinated by is this idea that, Y- there's, there, there's this... it's kind of an education aspect to, things that you're doing, which is you're the chief spokesperson for drones for, the Australian UAV service. W- what's been the sort of the biggest issue that you've had f- when you've been doing all these major interviews in the last month? Has it been, How much is it costing? W- the... Is it an intrusion on privacy? What, what's been the biggest sort of pushback from other, say, journalists where you've been doing these interviews?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

Yeah, it's been a, it's been a whirlwind p-past, past month. I love to talk about it. I love what we do it, it's easy to talk to, and it's all for that great purpose. But yeah, there's inevitably been a number of challenges

ZOOM0098_Tr1

as we,

ZOOM0098_Tr3

as we scale up virtually overnight for this amount of scale. Yeah. Internally some of our challenges has just been, yeah, the virtually overnight nature of it and getting all these locations set up, getting the equipment to these new beaches that we weren't previously flying a day ago.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

And what does that mean? Does that mean everyone has to have a car with a drone, with batteries, they've all got to be trained up, they've all gotta have the uniform, they've all gotta know what they're doing Yeah. There's

ZOOM0098_Tr3

uniforms. Yeah. There's training. But fortunately, a- and that's a big part of it is the engagement with the clubs and the facilities that store our drones. So all the drones are stored locally down at the tower here- Yeah At Bondi. And the pilots need to know how to access them- Yeah the permissions that they've got to get the drones out. There's diff- and each location has a different club access

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Yes.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

So all the pilots are trained on that, getting the equipment there, getting the training, yeah, the pilots overnight. And yeah that, that's internally been quite a- quick, rapid scale-up challenge. But fortunately we did it over January when we went from we did 40,000 flights the year before last, 100,000 this year, and as I said, 500,000 next year. So we had some experience scaling up in January to add to a few more locations on the Northern Beaches. And all that back, all the backend systems that we've got established, the maintenance, the safety, the training that being there and existing has helped provide that foundation that's allowed us to scale. Yeah. So yeah, there's a solid foundation that we're building off and all these systems really help with that. I think some of the, the challenges that you'd mentioned as well, though, as well in terms of privacy that, that gets brought up a bit. As well as just the hysteria and the concern for sharks that are out there, and I guess that's the point I wanted to make before. The, the fact that we're seeing sharks out there shouldn't alarm people. Of course, they're out there. It's the technology, it's the technology doing what it's meant

ZOOM0098_Tr1

to be doing- Yeah

ZOOM0098_Tr3

and detecting them. Most of them aren't a threat. Most of them aren't a target species, being the whites, the bulls, or the tigers. And yeah, it, the, we work very collaboratively and catching them early and actively tracking them will mean we'll put the right countermeasures in place. But also the ones that don't interrupt people, if we don't need to close the beach 'cause it's not a threat, we won't.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Is what a lot of the surfers tell us all the time, right? They've been surfing with sharks for years, and years. Yeah. But it's fascinating at Bondi, 'cause you do see dolphins, you do see whales.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

Oh, we see some incredible stuff out there, honestly. Yeah the whales, rays, dolphins- Yes bait balls. It's obviously a beautiful ocean. And from up there in the sky-

ZOOM0098_Tr1

beautiful ocean and- Turtles up

ZOOM0098_Tr3

in the sky you can, as I said, see so clearly through the water column. So we're mainly out there to, to see, detect any hazards. Yeah. But our pilots as a natural part of the job get to see some pretty cool stuff.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

The, the ocean is amazing, and I think you start to appreciate what is out there. As far as future technology opportunities are for you guys obviously the bigger the drone, the more capable it is for carrying a payload, which might include, an inflatable device or something that or a, a flotation device that can be dropped to the person in trouble or in need of rescue, perhaps as a first response before the jet ski gets there, the UAV, or the surf lifesaver on the board, for example. What do you think is going to be the opportunity, or is it? Or do you not want to get involved in that kind of thing?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

No, we are looking at that dropping of a flotation device at the moment. Wh- where this is all gonna head technology-wise is flying more remotely as well. So at the moment we have pilots on the beach.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

have pilots on the The

ZOOM0098_Tr3

is definitely not to replace them. There's so much value in having a boots on the ground, local knowledge- of an

ZOOM0098_Tr1

the area.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

To reach around the headlands or in locations that are maybe hard to staff and get to we... we're looking at the more advanced complex operations of having what's called a drone in a box. And that's literally a box that can sit on the roof of a surf club. And we're gonna target six locations to roll those out initially. And then we've also got this self-sufficient solar panel trailer that has the boxes on top of them as well that can be put onto headlands without any kind of power. Those boxes house the drones in them. They land inside, charge up automatically, and can fly from them, and we actually operate and fly them from Belrose in our remote operation center. As part of this scale-up, we're gonna expand that remote operation center add more pilots, add more desks and capability to it, get some extra approvals, working with CASA to be able to fly across the coastline in what's called beyond visual line of sight. You no longer can see the drone- Yeah with your own eyes. That's the next level of operation, and not anyone can do that. We've been working towards that for the past few years, and I think that's part of the challenge of what we do, is looking where the industry is going and staying ahead of it. And we're fortunate enough, as again, that, that backend team to have their eyes in the future and where it's going and put some of these things in place in advance of this whole scale-up now, so then we're best positioned to start to do it.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Yes. Th- because o- obviously I was thinking as a surf lifesaver, and my kind of immediate- sort of patch, if you like, is really a couple of hundred meters out. Yeah. Whereas, a lot of the deaths of from, say people that are doing fishing on rock outcrops- Yes.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

I'm glad you mentioned that- Yes 'cause, yeah, surf, Which

ZOOM0098_Tr1

We're not gonna patrol that 'cause it's not a beach. It's, usually somewhere that, there... And sometimes there are signs up saying, "Don't fish here, it's dangerous," but they insist on fishing there- Yeah without life vests on or something.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

a lot of projects at, at Surf to encourage rock fishermen to wear life jackets. Yeah. But also we've got AI cameras set up now across the coastline- Cool that ad- artificial intelligence can detect if a rock fisher is on the rocks, and then if they've fallen in it sends an alert. And to your point before if that whole system works with our drones in these boxes on the roofs of surf clubs- then it can automatically then detect someone's fallen in, there's a hazard, let's get the drone pilot to fly off from the box on the roof of the surf club- Yeah w- within seconds, and then it can install a flotation device that can drop into the ocean- Yes and hopefully rescue the person. We- we're trialing that 'cause there's all sorts of things around that. You wanna drop it so that they can within reach and it doesn't float away, and then all sorts of things there. But yeah, a system that works together like that with AI, cameras on

ZOOM0098_Tr1

the roofs- Yeah rock

ZOOM0098_Tr3

fishers, drones on the roofs of surf clubs- Yeah with bo- in the box that's the future of where we wanna go.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

That's right. I s- I read the media pretty much every day. The- there always seems to be these sad accidents of people drowning because they're fishing off, certain places. So that's a fascinating story that, that sort of helps the, the, the broader community. 'Cause o- obviously everyone who has an accident or dies, it's, they're a f- a father or brother and, they've got this extended family that is impacted by these things. So- Yeah. Of course I certainly, feel for when these things happen. Now, what's the best way for people to get in touch if they are interested either in sort of being a volunteer, learning more, or taking the UAV pilot's license? Is that the right way? Yeah. Yeah?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

the best way, so we have a website. It's australianuavs.com.au.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Lovely.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

You can Google as well "Become a UAV pilot Australian UAV Service" and it'll pop up. And the best way to get in touch is there's a contact page within that website. Great. And then you can click the Apply Now button as well to, to apply to become a pilot, and that's where our recruitment team would then get in touch and talk you through those training steps from literally off the beach with no training off the street, sorry, with no training onto the beach. So yeah, via the website is definitely the best way to get in touch

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Yeah. Now for people that are, say surf lifesavers clubs and they are interested in doing some volunteer work you might have a, say, a job or a business, but you want to do a little bit of UAV- Yeah service work, is there an opportunity for you to combine your volunteer surf lifesaving activity with some hours as a drone operator as well?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

So we have a, a whole membership pro- UAV program as well. We have a separate chief remote pilot for that. Her name's Emma Gale. And she oversees, yeah, the membership UAV program. So she's helped a lot of clubs I think over 30 or even 40 clubs purchase their own drones at the moment that can then, their patrolling members can use them as part of their patrols. We're working at the mo- Obviously, the, the shark detection drones are out there at many beaches, but that's not to say that the members' patrol drones can't be up at the same time working together. It just adds to that coverage. And yeah, just doing it as part of their patrol on a volunteer basis. So yeah, there's so there's many opportunities, not just paid work for the membership team as well. Yeah,

ZOOM0098_Tr1

that's right. No, that's fascinating. Look I encourage everyone listening who's interested to have a look at that website, and I'll put the website in the show notes on the podcasting platform. We'll list that address so people can look into where they listen on the podcast, whether it's Buzzsprout or Apple Podcasts or what, or Spotify and we'll list the link there so that people can click on that. But it's been fascinating talking through every- I forgot to mention, you're a commercial pilot

ZOOM0098_Tr3

I am,

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Oh, yeah.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

I had a whole life before coming across to- Yeah, but- to Surf

ZOOM0098_Tr1

whole life before coming to work- Yeah at S- surf But, and what, i- has that been incredibly beneficial, or is drones just a whole another level of kind of looking at flying?

ZOOM0098_Tr3

It's, it actually been very helpful. So there's a lot of transferable skills that I've been fortunate enough from my commercial background beforehand in the crewed world to bring across. And at the end of the day, it's a shared airspace. So part of the challenge of having our drones out there all the time is, yeah, we're, we are now in the airspace that the crew, you'll see the helicopter's going past now. And the, it's a shared airspace, and we need to respect that safe aviation culture that is existing already out there. So having some knowledge of that. And many of our pilots, who are casual as well, have background there,

ZOOM0098_Tr1

too.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

got young kids but also retirees and people that have different careers, and many of them have been pilots in the past, and that kind of experience is really helpful. So we've tried to align our drone operations over the last few years to that crewed world to respect that safety culture that's out there to, to integrate safely into the shared airspace. And I've had a lot of conversations with crewed stakeholders over the last month in particular of, yeah, this is where we are, these are our locations, this is what our standard operating procedures are. We'll, our, it is under our SOPs to get out of the way if a crewed operation comes through. And just we're trying to help educate the public with that as well because, yeah, obviously a crewed aircraft helicopter coming through has somebody on board. The drones are very maneuverable. Get them out of the way and let the crew do role, do their job.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Yes. We have members of the, this club who are glider pilots- Yeah hot air balloon pilots. So there's a lot of people with a lot of experience of things like CASA and all the sort of rules and regs. But it's fascinating, I think, how the airspace is going to change and surf life saving is going to change, too. It's been-

ZOOM0098_Tr3

yeah, and that's something we work closely with CASA on. So all these more complex operations like

ZOOM0098_Tr1

CASA is the civil-

ZOOM0098_Tr3

the Civil- Civil Aviation Safety Authority. So they're the regulator. Great. And they've, To shout them out, at the moment, they've been exceptional to work with- Good as part of this scale up. They've really helped us get the instruments in place, many that we already had in place to be able to fly. Like when Coogee occurred we have an emergency services instrument specific to emergency services and us that allowed us to fly in a location that's otherwise restricted

ZOOM0098_Tr1

'Cause it's near the airport, isn't it? Under the flight path that's- Yeah coming in. they

ZOOM0098_Tr3

had things like that in place but getting us other instruments with a quick turnaround too so we can get these public safety operations in place quickly. And then yeah, working closely with them now and for these more complex type of operations from a remote operation center. But just making sure appropriately there's a process around that because you can't just go out and do it. Wanna make sure it safely integrates into- Yeah into the airspace.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

can't just go ahead and do it. Wanna make sure it safely integrates into- Yeah the air space. Yeah, of course. Look, James, it's been a fascinating discussion, and I'm sure it's all going to change in another year or so as drones get bigger or smaller and more effective and use more AI. But for now, thanks very much for being our guest on The Bondi Patrol Podcast.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

Thank you very much, Glenn. It's been a pleasure.

ZOOM0098_Tr1

Cheers then.

ZOOM0098_Tr3

then.

Head Shot

Glen Frost

Host